Heated Dáil exchange between SF leader and Taoiseach over clarity on 100% redress for pyrite-hit homeowners
An heated exchange has taken place in Dáil Éireann between Taoiseach Micheál Martin and Sinn Féin leader Deputy Mary Lou McDonald.
At the outset of the debate on a day when protests were held outside the National Conference Centre and Leinster House by homeowners affected by the pyrite and mica debacle, Deputy McDonald stated: "The scandal relating to defective building blocks with pyrite and mica has devastated the homes and lives of the families affected.
"This scandal has hit many areas across the State but it is most acute in Donegal, Mayo and Clare.
"This scandal is a result of the light-touch regulation and reckless practices of the Celtic tiger years.
"It is not the fault of the families concerned, it is the fault of those who were supposed to have their backs and who were supposed to be looking out for them.
"These families have been failed by the system and by the State.
"These people have worked hard and saved hard to buy homes for themselves and their families and to secure for themselves what everyone deserves, that is, a safe, secure roof over their head and a place to call home.
"Yet, through no fault of their own, they find themselves in a nightmare situation where their houses are literally crumbling around them.
"Meeting recently with some of those affected was a powerful and heartbreaking experience. These people are at their wits' end. They are heartbroken.
"What has happened to them has taken its toll on their family lives and health, including their mental health. Everything many of these families own is falling in around them.
"They go to bed at night wondering if their gable wall will collapse or if the chimney on their home or a neighbouring home will fall down.
"Despite everything they have been through, they remain strong and resolute. These are good people and they are determined to get justice.
"They are gathered outside this building today and they are welcome to Dublin to pursue justice. They deserve and need the support of all of us, including the Taoiseach, me and every TD.
"I promised these families we would do everything we possibly can to advance their cause for a 100% redress scheme.
"Sinn Féin will lay a motion calling for that support before the Dáil tonight to see that these families and homeowners are insured to get 100% redress.
"That is what they deserve and nothing short of it will suffice. The scheme that the Government previously put in place is not working. It is letting people down.
"Under that scheme, some families are expected to come up with up to €100,000 or more to contribute to fixing their homes. Who has that kind of money? It is incredibly unfair.
"The campaign and demand for a scheme that covers the cost of rebuilding their homes is right and just. Ba mhaith leis na teaghlaigh scéim a fheiceáil a chlúdóidh an costas a bhaineann lena a dtithe a atógáil. Bheadh sé sin ceart. Is é an t-aon réiteach cóir atá ann ná scéim sásaimh 100% a shocrú.
"This nightmare needs to come to an end. These families have been failed by the system and by the State and the current scheme fails them again.
"They cannot be left in this situation. The only fair solution, therefore, is for the government to deliver a 100% redress schemes and to do so urgently.
"I ask the Taoiseach directly to give us and them a clear, unambiguous commitment that the government will deliver a 100% redress scheme."
Taoiseach Micheál Martin: "First, what has happened to the homeowners in County Donegal, and indeed in counties Mayo, Clare and elsewhere but particularly the vast majority in Donegal, is scandalous.
"It is devastating for those homeowners. I visited one such home last week owned by the Murtagh family in Raphoe. Last year, I saw the outsides of other houses. What has happened is appalling.
"We all know the impact it can have on people when one of the key objectives in life to build their family home, and the sweat, toil and effort that entails, is taken away from them, in this case by the supply and provision of defective blocks.
"The government's and my view is that we will do everything we possibly can to help the homeowners and to refine, amend and change this scheme, in consultation with the Mica Action Group, with a view to making sure we have a sustainable scheme that can bring these homes back, make them habitable for the families and give them the experience they originally envisaged when they first took out the mortgage and provided for themselves to build a house.
"In fairness, the previous government, working with the Mica Action Group at the time, brought in the scheme in January 2020 in very good faith. In fact, it was accepted all around.
"I recall the Sinn Féin spokesman at the time, Deputy Mac Lochlainn, welcomed confirmation of the scheme back then. He identified some issues, in that he believed the banks should have been involved in helping.
"It is fair to say that it initially got broad acceptance, however. I do not, therefore, believe assertions of bad faith on anyone's part are correct. Everybody wants to do and is interested in doing the right thing here.
"The Minister has written to the Mica Action Group and has spoken with it over the last number of days. I spoke with the Mica Action Group on Thursday when I had a meeting with it and Donegal County Council, including the director of housing, the manager and the chairman of the group, Councillor Martin McDermott.
"Our view is that we should set in train a time-bound process lasting approximately six weeks involving the Mica Action Group, representatives from the different counties, the local authorities and the department to work on the scheme and iron out all the issues. Different issues apply to different homeowners.
"I refer to the figure of €100,000. Nobody wants someone to be caught for €100,000. I acknowledge there are issues about upfront costs that must be dealt with.
"There are issues around people having to rent accommodation while their house is being rebuilt, which have to be dealt with. There also are other issues and supports that we may be in a position to provide.
"I believe that we have to carry out an analysis, however. A number of applications have come in.
"When I spoke with Donegal County Council, it said that 33% of those houses would have to be rebuilt. An analysis of what has come in so far might give us a good picture of how we amend and improve this scheme overall.
"Motions will come and go but the work must be done to improve this scheme and ensure that homeowners can avail of it to get their houses rebuilt or repaired without any undue impact on them.
"The scale this programme will be far in excess of any other entered into so far. The Department's estimate of the original scheme, which was entered into in good faith, was close to €1 billion. I believe we will go over that €1 billion. The defective argument is also important. Some 31 local building control authorities have extensive powers of inspection and enforcement.
"There are the requirements of the building regulations, the EU directive and so on. There are responsibilities on designers, the builders of buildings and the suppliers of bricks as well, of which we cannot lose sight.
"I am just making that point. Generally speaking, we want to do the right thing by those who were let down by the provision of these defective blocks, which have rendered their homes, in many instances, unliveable and have created great anxiety.
"We want to help them and we are going to do that."
Deputy McDonald: "Let us agree that something went catastrophically wrong in respect of mica and pyrite. Something went catastrophically wrong with the blocks that were used to construct these homes.
"Let us also agree that those responsible for these catastrophic wrongs have to be identified and held to account. I have no argument with the Taoiseach and the people of Donegal, Mayo and Clare have no argument with him on that score.
"He has called this is a scandal and said it is appalling. He is correct on both counts. He has said he will enter into a time-bound process to put things right. I welcome that because we need to be timely and efficient.
"However, what we also need to hear from the Taoiseach, as Head of Government, is that the scheme that is landed on will represent, in reality, 100% redress. The last scheme may have been introduced in good faith but the truth is that it has not worked. That scheme has left families in misery, living this nightmare day after day, night after night. That must stop.
"We know that the only sustainable and viable redress is 100% redress. I want to invite the Taoiseach again to clearly state that the Government will pursue and deliver, in a timely fashion, a scheme that is 100% redress.
"The people gathered on the streets of Dublin want to hear the Taoiseach confirm that. Can he confirm it for them, please?"
An Taoiseach: "First, as I said earlier, motions and slogans will not solve this. I had a very good meeting with the Mica Action Group last Thursday. As a result of that, I contacted the Minister again and said, "Let us put in place a process here."
"The Deputy talks about 100%, but 100% of what? It is not as simple as asserted. That came up in the conversation. There is a whole range of issues we have to discuss in terms of the grant caps, allowable costs, engineering costs, upfront costs and how we can make it easier for the homeowners in this context. That is what we want to do.
Deputy McDonald: "Will the Taoiseach answer my question?"
An Taoiseach: "That is why the Minister has corresponded with the group and spoken to it. He is anxious to get this up and running as quickly as possible. We will also consult the Mica Action Group on its issues and so on.
Deputy McDonald: "Is the Taoiseach committing to a 100% redress scheme?"
An Taoiseach: "I make the point that the scheme was entered into in good faith. The Deputy's party colleague welcomed it at the time, as did everybody else.
Deputy McDonald: Is the Taoiseach guaranteeing 100% redress?
An Taoiseach: "The government is absolutely committed to doing the right thing and is going to provide-----
Deputy McDonald: Will it be 100% redress?
An Taoiseach: "-----exceptional resources to make sure we can make these houses liveable again for the families involved in a way that ensures the kinds of impacts that have been suggested are addressed. Obviously, the working through of the scheme has created a lot of issues, as people have raised. The submission was made to the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, at the end of April and he is responding to that now."
Deputy McDonald: "I want to object to the Taoiseach studiously refusing to answer a very straightforward question about a 100% redress scheme. Will he please answer it?"
An Taoiseach: "I answered the question, in fairness."
Deputy McDonald: "No, you have not, Taoiseach, and that is very worrying.
The Taoiseach: "With respect, a Cheann Comhairle, this kind of intervention is unprecedented during Leaders' Questions. I will just make the point that I am not exploiting this for political reasons. The Deputy seems to want to exploit every issue for political advancement.
"I want to get this issue resolved on behalf of the residents and owners."